Facebook Posts – September 15, 2015

Currie Mixon

September 15, 2015

For those opposed to the sidewalk petition that passed with ~70% of the property owners on Lorimer Rd., what would a sidewalk petition look like that you would sign?


Currie Mixon – The answer to this would look like, “I would sign a petition for a sidewalk if…”

Like · 1 · September 15, 2015 at 2:49pm

Erin Salmon – I would start with a petition for an asphalt sidewalk on the east side of the road. I would also petition for two stop signs on Lorimer. One when heading north at Merwin, and one when heading south at Onslow. i would also petition for the bus stop to exist at this old location, so that the crosswalk would get repainted and signage added. I kniw you did not ask, but to address the curb and gutter aspect, I would sign a petition to address the ditches directly as a stormwater concern. I can’t remember if I posted a link to the city’s stormwater management page, but the city actually grants funding specifically to help neighborhoods address stormwater and erosion issues.

Like · 2 · September 15, 2015 at 5:34pm

Erin Salmon – I would also sign a petition for No Thru Trucks signs.

Like · 3 · September 15, 2015 at 5:35pm · Edited

Erin Salmon – I have a question also: does safe walkability on our road have to look like a sidewalk?

Like · 1 · September 15, 2015 at 5:59pm

Shannon Bellezza – Though I would not be signing anything, I would suggest minimum setbacks or anything else to minimize property encroachment. Also, not widening the road. Something that has not been brought up is that it is uncertain whether the Melbourne Rd. ramps will remain open when the 440 widening takes place. Should these ramps close, many more people will be using the Western Blvd ramps. This will contribute to more cut-through traffic. A wider road would not only make Lorimer more desirable as the cut-through route of choice, but I suspect it would cause these people to drive faster than they would on a small neighborhood road.

Like · 2 · September 15, 2015 at 6:22pm · Edited

Shannon Bellezza – Also, I would love a 4-way stop at the intersection of Onslow and Lorimer. Turning from my side of Onslow onto Lorimer is tricky due to the curve and hill. You really can’t see the cars on Lorimer until they’re right up on you (and many of them tend to drive down the center of the road rather than on either side).

Like · September 15, 2015 at 6:08pm

Jeff Essic – An asphalt trail on the east side, or whichever side we could mutually agree on, would be fine with me. Even better, though, in my opinion, would be a natural trail that we as neighbors work to construct and maintain. Where it runs, whether east side or west, whether along our front yards or perhaps in the back, we would have to discuss. I would be open to consider any routing on my lot. And I would be very willing to help with buying materials and doing work anywhere needed. I think it would give our neighborhood a uniqueness and distinction that others would envy. Now, someone might say, “but what about the stormwater”… well as it is, the city wants to spend $1.7million with the blink of an eye on a project that does nothing to improve stormwater, but instead only hides it from our view and makes it worse further downstream. What if instead we work with the city to spend such money on some infrastructure that will actually decrease the amount of water running into Bushy Creek? Folks, we are in the backyard of NCSU where there are a plethora of faculty and students who would love to have the opportunity to use our neighborhood as a proving ground for studying and demonstrating how older development can be retrofit for water quality protection.

Like · 6 · September 16, 2015 at 9:57am

Currie Mixon – Just curious, why is an asphalt trail preferred to concrete?

Like · September 16, 2015 at 10:02am

Jeff Essic – not speaking for Erin Salmon but I think, asphalt can be laid in a less disruptive manner. You don’t see concrete trails in parks, for example.

Like · 1 · September 16, 2015 at 10:11am

Erin Salmon – Greenway trails appeal to me more than sidewalks. When I currently walk down our street, it feels like a double wide greenway. I would sign a petition to have the road resurfaced, definitely.

Like · September 16, 2015 at 9:58pm

Currie Mixon – I try to bike to work as much as is feasible, so I traverse several paths often. This sidewalk/path is one that I travel on most days when I bike home. The ~1 inch mounds come from roots and those come from the nearby pine trees. Our driveway is another dramatic example of the frailty of an asphalt pathway.

Currie Mixon's photo.
Like · September 18, 2015 at 1:59pm

Ryan Barnum – In all fairness, this happens to concrete sidewalks too. It doesn’t show up like a series of 1″ bumps like this shows, but it pushes the square section of concrete upward, or just cracks the concrete. If you walk down Gorman towards Avent Ferry from Kaplan you see a lot of it.

Like · 1 · September 18, 2015 at 3:32pm

Erin Salmon – The sidewalk near the gas station on the corner of Kent and Western is another example of tree root damage to concrete sidewalks, FYI.

Like · September 18, 2015 at 4:46pm

Currie Mixon – It’s worth thinking about that if the Melbourne ramps do close and that leads to more cut-trough traffic, that’s all the more reason to have a way to get pedestrians off the road.

Like · September 16, 2015 at 10:04am

Jeff Essic – I bet stop signs at Onslow would reduce a lot of the cut-thrus. Kent/Method Roads have always had a lot of traffic because at one time, they were the only way to get to Hillsborough St. from points south before Gorman and Blue Ridge were finished in the late 80’s. I’ve been told that quite a bit of that traffic spilled over onto Lorimer and Chaney, since at one time, you could take Chaney straight across Western Blvd and avoid the stoplight altogether as long as you were willing to play frogger (this was the case up until 2002 according to google earth). I would like to hear from longer-term residents if safety was a problem during that time and if sidewalks were considered then.

Like · 1 · September 16, 2015 at 11:04am

Shannon Bellezza – But wouldn’t it make more sense to make the road less attractive for cut throughs with stop signs and keeping the road narrow?

Like · 1 · September 16, 2015 at 11:52am


Barbara Scott – Jeff Essic, I moved to Chaney in 1989 when you could still take Chaney straight across Western Boulevard. The traffic from Western was not quite as intense then as now, but one still had a hard time getting across Western from Chaney during any time ofSee More

Like · September 18, 2015 at 4:49pm

Barbara Scott – I don’t live on Lorimer and I appreciate the opportunity to contribute. These are some ideals. I know I’m dreaming, but thank you for the opportunity to do that. Permeable pavement for the sidewalk, such as permeable interlocking concrete pavers. Putting some kind of creative groundcover (instead of grass) in the strip that separates sidewalk from street. The plants would not require mowing and would absorb surface runoff and provide wildlife habitat. Maybe this is veering over into the stormwater design aspect of it too much, but some kind of holding pond near the creek that would filter water from any curb and gutter or water channel structures before it reaches the creek could become a focal point. The pond could be planted with native plants that tolerate wet and dry periods. The area would provide food and habitat for birds and other wildlife, and serve as a teaching tool for public schools and home schools. It could be a place for children to learn about creek habitats, water flow, water management, and all kinds of things.

Like · 3 · September 16, 2015 at 2:04pm

Barbara Scott – As I said, I’m dreaming of the ideal. But when making a $1.5 million change, why not hold an ideal in mind that inspires the practical decisions of such a project? People are going to live with what happens here for a long time after it’s done.

Like · 2 · September 16, 2015 at 2:19pm · Edited
Don Munn – I’ve often wondered if we could get folks on board for a path under the power lines and up to the church parking lot? I’d happily work on a section in my easement… might have to check I with the power company on materials, but seems like it would be doable….
Or if we want to ce together as a community and build a walkway in our yards, we would have a lot more flexibility in the elevation adjustments if we didn’t have to follow the road? I know it might not be cheap, but cheaper by the foot than $32…..

Like · 2 · September 16, 2015 at 10:17pm

Facebook Posts – September 12, 2015

Don Munn uploaded a file.

September 12, 2015

Portable Document Format


Ryan Barnum – Two things I want to point out about this petition are that our house was never included on the map. The garage and the neighbors house tucked in behind it are there, but our house is missing. Also, I’m not sure if the petition I signed had my name on it or still listed Adrianne Jorgensen as the owner. I don’t recall, and I’m not sure it matters all that much anyway. I bought the house in April after the meeting so we weren’t at that and missed a lot of the initial discussion about this project.
Like · September 12, 2015 at 4:41pm
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Erin Salmon

September 12, 2015

I took these pictures yesterday of the Kaplan sidewalk construction. There are a few in particular of a sloped yard. I tried to hold the camera at eye level. It seemed to be of similar height to the slope in my yard, but not sure of the exact height and grade. I did have a chance to meet and talk with the owners of the house. They are very unhappy because they had no choice in this project because of Kaplan’s residential road status. The city has said they will not get a retaining wall. Just grading. The last shot is with a house that seems closest to the project.

Erin Salmon's photo.
Erin Salmon's photo.
Erin Salmon's photo.
Erin Salmon's photo.
Erin Salmon's photo.



Carol Apperson – That’s ridiculous and very unsightly!!! There is going to be erosion. They put retaining walls on Merwin when they put in the sidewalk. Why not here?
Like · September 12, 2015 at 5:12pm
Sharon Moll Mixon – I wonder if there is erosion and if that is the cities easement, do you tell the city to come take care of the problem?
Like · September 13, 2015 at 10:37am
Sharon Moll Mixon – Did they put that construction fence at people’s property line?
Like · September 13, 2015 at 1:51pm · Edited
Erin Salmon – For the yard with the slope, yes. I did not look at every yard along the length of this sidewalk project to see if that was the case.
Like · September 13, 2015 at 6:28pm
Ryan Barnum – I’m pretty sure the fence runs the whole length of the sidewalk. It appears to be at the very edge of the right of way, but I could be wrong. Everything from the fence to the road was scraped clean down to the dirt.
Like · September 13, 2015 at 6:31pm
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Facebook Posts – September 10-11, 2015

Erin Salmon

September 10, 2015

I am finding it very difficult to keep up with all of the posts because they are embedded as responses to previous posts. Perhaps the discussions could continue as new posts that begin, “In response to so-and-so’s previous post.”

I too am disappointed by the removal of Kay Crowder. Having her voice in this matter could provide a lot of clarity. Particularly since I am missing so much information from the April meeting, and that seems to be where the misinformation began. It is also disappointing that Donna, the legal petitioner to this proposal has also left the conversation, and that we are left dealing with the fallout.

I appreciate Sam Bellezza’a comments around the positive benefits of this forum. Obviously this is a deeply emotional experience because we are talking about our homes. We live in an intimate neighborhood, and we will all live with one another after this is history.


Sharon Moll Mixon

September 10, 2015 · Raleigh, NC, United States

As the administrator of this page I removed Kay Crowder from this secret group. If you would like to talk to her in person PM me and I will give you her assistant’s number. I was surprised how easy it was to get in touch with her.


Barbara Scott Thanks for telling us.

Like · 1 · September 10, 2015 at 11:22am

Don Munn – Why was she removed? I would think she could do a lot to answer a many of our questions……..

Like · 2 · September 10, 2015 at 11:41am

Jane Fenn – That has not been my experience at all. I have her assistant’s phone number and have spoken to him many times since mid-August. Not once have I ever been allowed to speak to her. I have emailed her — not one reply. I have written a letter — no reply. Every way there is of reaching her goes through the assistant — nothing goes to her directly. I was told recently by the assistant that she would call me. So far, nothing. He did say she might receive a hundred emails a day and did I expect she responded to all? My thought there is what working person does NOT receive many many emails a day, and we all have to respond as part of our jobs. Did she think when she took this office that she could choose to respond only when it was convenient for her or matched her own goals? I have not found her responsive nor helpful. She would know, I would think, that a council member is going to hear from constituents and I would further think she would know that part of her job responsibilities is responding. I do say emphatically that her assistant Nick Sadler is unfailingly courteous and helpful but his job is clearly to shield her and he does it well. If you have been successful at speaking with her, Sharon, I can’t help but wonder if the difference is that you are supporting something she wants and I am advocating changes in something she wants. My correspondence with her has been respectful and has offered positive suggestions, but it does not agree with what she clearly is pushing. I did speak very assertively to the assistant once about not ever being able to reach her directly in my frustration, and still he remained helpful and friendly, but no way was he going to get me through to her directly at all. His job responsibilities are clear and he fulfills them very well. He does his best to answer any question I ask but he is making sure I don’t get through directly to her. I don’t doubt that she has seen what I have sent — I am certain he does that effectively. I personally have not had any reason to think at this point that she is fulfilling her responsibility of being responsive to those she represents — a key art of the job she was elected to do. Please do call the council offices at 919-996-3050 and I sincerely hope each of you has better luck at getting through to her than I have had.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 1:18pm

Karen Flowers Essic – Oh, that’s too bad, Sharon. It was disappointing to me she didn’t receive a better welcome to the group–improving communication with the council could have been helpful.

Like · 4 · September 10, 2015 at 1:54pm

Erin Salmon – I am curious, like Don, as to why she was removed. Did she ask to be removed?

Like · 1 · September 11, 2015 at 3:03pm

Sharon Moll Mixon – I sent a friends request to Kay Crowder’s personal FB page and a PM to ask her if she would like to be added to this group. I noticed that she is not much of a FB person (she doesn’t post anything on her own page). I pictured Kay spending her valuable time sorting through this increasingly negative page. After the “Kay Where are you?” comment I thought, “wow – this was a bad idea I had.” I felt embarrassed by what she saw, so I got in touch with her and offered to remove her from the group. She said “that is fine”.

Like · September 11, 2015 at 10:44pm

Steve Grothmann – I wrote her an email, very objectively conveying some of the concerns of the 1/3 opposed and pointing out the emotional debate on this page, and asking for her input about those concerns. She did respond, but it was very rote and didn’t really say anything more than, “the petition passed and the rules were followed.”

Like · 3 · September 13, 2015 at 3:41pm

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Don Munn 

September 11, 2015
Minority Concerns.
    1. Watershead issues.  Additional impervious surface will exacerbate existing issues on Bushy Creek
    2. Encroachment issues.  Full width set back and sidewalk takes the perimieter a full 14.5′ from the existing road edge on the West side of Lorimer.  Main concern is this will have sidewalks in close proximity to some residences
    3. Driveway/elevation issues.  The full width setback of 14.5 feet will create some very alkward driveway and yard alterations.
  • Loss of Trees.  Aesthetic charator of neighborhood.
  • Additional width of road may lead to higher speeds on roadway, esp with Western Blvd/Kent inersection being possible only connection to I-440.  (Lorimer will be road of choice for anyone West of Kent…)
  • Undo cost burden on some property owners.  (Would the Church have signed if they had to pay?
  • ??? List more here….


Sharon Moll Mixon – 7. Concern that peoples are making assumptions and upsetting their neighbors.

Like · September 13, 2015 at 4:32am · Edited

Don Munn – Lets try to stick with the concerns… if there are facts that are wrong, lets correct them.

Like · September 12, 2015 at 12:38am

Sharon Moll Mixon – If I can trust that you will not slap me with a lawsuit for stating something incorrectly….

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:18am · Edited

Sharon Moll Mixon – 1. The road is going to stay the same 22ft then they are adding 2.5ft curb and gutter on each side. please read Curries post —I would like to bring a little real-world clarity to an issue— from Sept 9th

Like · September 13, 2015 at 4:34am · Edited

Don Munn – The drawing posted is straight from the petition. I am in the process of making the “modified” 5′ sidewalk version.

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:05am

Sharon Moll Mixon – Don did you watch the video from September 1st council meeting? Jimmy Upchurch said a 3.5 foot setback would not be a problem. But no one proposed that at the meeting. The talking point was not about the size of the footprint. Instead it was about leaving the 1200 block off petition. The petitioner and the 28 homes that made this happen, had no idea 7 households were being represented by a lawyer to oppose the petition.

Like · September 13, 2015 at 4:25am

Sharon Moll Mixon – there will be a 5ft sidewalk but it will have grass (or something) on both sides of it

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:06am

Don Munn – Yes, as the drawing shows… 6′ between the curb and the sidewalk

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:07am

Sharon Moll Mixon – 2.encroachment=intrusion on a person’s territory. The city has 60ft easement they will only be using 50ft. So they will not be on your property. I don’t think anyone really knows the width of the set back at this point.

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:16am

Don Munn – On the west side they are using all but 3′ per the current design. (was 2′ but the reduction of the sidewalk made it 3..) And yes, I understand that the city has the right to use their right of way, but when most of these houses were built, that ROW was not in effect. so houses were built closer to the property lines than would be allowed today.

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:22am · Edited

Sharon Moll Mixon – ? have you noticed the placement of the last home built in this neighborhood. I would guess it is the closest to the property line.

Like · September 13, 2015 at 4:30am

Sharon Moll Mixon – 3. Have you seen the sidewalk project on Kaplen? they are doing a great good on driveways/elevation issues in my opinion.

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:22am

Sharon Moll Mixon – 6. The church does have to pay for the area that does not have curb and gutter already.

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:33am

Erin Salmon – All of the measurements I have done on our road equal 20′. I could be wrong, but I have measured many times in many places. The city has us listed on the project report as 22′. Not sure why. They list Garland as 20′.

Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:48am

Erin Salmon – Perhaps we need this corrected in the city records.

Erin Salmon's photo.
Like · September 12, 2015 at 1:49am

Facebook Posts – September 8, 2015

Ryan Barnum

September 8, 2015

Ryan Barnum – This is where all the kids usually play.

Like · September 8, 2015 at 3:50pm

Sharon Moll Mixon – Holy cow I had no idea. I am so glad the petition passed and all this is going to be addressed.

Like · September 8, 2015 at 4:19pm

Steve Grothmann – Sharon, the petition will have all the storm water that falls on the (wider) street piped directly into the creek rather than through grass/dirt ditches, where a lot of it absorbs into the ground.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 6:06am · Edited

Erin Salmon – To give a better visual, the neighbors who spoke at the city council meeting about flooding in their yards (not in the ditches, because the ditches belong to the city and are not residential property), the water that floods these actually yards is going to get directed through impervious pipes directly into this very part of the creek that Ryan’s video shows. Creating a greater volume if water that will add to current erosion if the creek itself, affecting your neighbors on Onslow that have had no say in this petition process. Do we want to be a neighborhood that pushes our problems onto our neighbors literally around the corner? Let’s come together to find better solutions for all of our concerns.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 7:25am

Erin Salmon – If the city did not accurately assess the creek impact, than it is their responsibility to spend that money to do so. You should read the Mission Statement of the City Council. They say they take environmental impact very seriously.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 7:30am

Erin Salmon – Sharon, when were people told that the impact assessments would not be done until AFTER the petition process was closed? It is my understanding that you and Donna led people to believe that we would have the ability to adjust the petition after it passSee More

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 7:36am

Sharon Moll Mixon – Someone laughed at me when I said I thought this creek was dangerous.

Like · September 8, 2015 at 4:24pm

Ryan Barnum – Well it’s not often that it gets to that point. I worry that adding concrete pipes to funnel all of the water from the tops of the hills so rapidly down into the creek is going to cause some major back flow or flooding issues in our yard. To this point it has never flooded or come up over the bank.

Like · 2 · September 8, 2015 at 4:33pm

Lee Lee – Ryan-you are in the grey house right by the creek, correct? I hope we don’t bother you when we’re there. My boys love that area of the creek and all the bamboo. They know to be respectful of your property and privacy.

Like · September 8, 2015 at 5:29pm

Ryan Barnum – Yes that one. I don’t mind at all. I would have loved to have something like that to play in when I was a kid. We haven’t had any issues other than a few kids from another street taking down some bamboo. I just told them to ask first next time and they have since then.

Like · 1 · September 8, 2015 at 5:32pm

Shannon Bellezza – Ryan, the day of the six inches of rain in thirty minutes the water was close to your door. A very elderly couple lived there at the time. It was maybe seven or eight years ago.

Like · 1 · September 8, 2015 at 7:55pm

Ryan Barnum – Wow that’s crazy! I’ve never seen it crest but I believe it. That’s a lot of rain all at once. That must have been when the Sawyers still lived here.

Like · September 8, 2015 at 8:04pm

Sharon Moll Mixon – I am confident the city uses very competent engineers to assess issues like that.

Like · September 8, 2015 at 4:50pm

Barbara Scott – I did some calculations yesterday. If 12 feet of paved surface are added (7 foot wider road and 5 foot sidewalks) along a .6 mile road (3,168 linear feet), that’s an additional 38,016 square feet of pavement, which amounts to .87 acre of new impervious surface from which unfiltered runoff will flow. Consider, too, that all the water from the existing 20 feet of paved road will also be directed into the creek through guttering that will move water faster than presently via grass swales, earthen ditches, and some rock ditches. Total impervious surface will be 27 feet + 5 feet = 32 feet x 3,168 linear feet, or 101,376 square feet, which amounts to 2.32 acres of paved surface. (A mile is 5,280 linear feet, and an acre is 43,560 square feet.)

Like · 3 · September 8, 2015 at 8:41pm

Currie Mixon – Sorry, Barbara, I didn’t see this post before I added a new one. Two things to point out – the first is that the sidewalk will have a grassed buffer between it and the street, so sidewalk runoff would be intercepted by grass (if there is a vegetated offset from the curb). So that 5 feet of sidewalk is effectively a minimal addition. The other point is that the water currently coming from the road does still get to the creek, but your point of it not being conveyed by curbs/pipes is a good one. At least it has a chance, currently, to infiltrate.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 10:39am

Jane Fenn – Are you saying the mandated setback HAS to be grass? Is that in the petition? In the uniform ordinance? What makes you say that?

Like · September 9, 2015 at 11:38am

Currie Mixon – I guess I don’t understand why it wouldn’t be.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 11:39am

Erin Salmon – Some people like myself actually prefer annual and perennial plants to grass.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 1:17pm

Barbara Scott – I did some measuring this afternoon. Curb and gutter takes up 30 inches on each side of a road, based on the end of Lorimer Road that meets Kaplan Drive where the street renovations were recently completed.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 8:02pm

Sharon Moll Mixon – Find the center of the road 11 feet in one direction add 2.5 feet for curb and gutter. This equals a 27 foot road. If you want to know what that looks like, look at Merlin, Woodlinks etc.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 1:35am

Erin Salmon – Not sure where the 11 feet from the center comes from. While the city has Lorimer listed as 22′, if you go measure what we see, the asphalt currently measures 20′.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 1:23pm

Erin Salmon – How wide is Kaplan, as a street? Also, Merwin and Woodlinks do not have the setback and sidewalks that come with this proposal.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 1:26pm · Edited

Barbara Scott – Just wanted to add that measurement so everyone will have the information.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 8:03pm

Erin Salmon – Thanks, Barbara. Your contributions to this discussion have provided a lot of specific information. I appreciate this forum for that, and I encourage everyone to contribute in this way so we can have the most accurate information possible. It is our right as citizens and residents.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 1:36pm

Facebook Posts – September 9, 2015

Currie Mixon

September 9, 2015

I would like to bring a little real-world clarity to an issue that has apparently caused a tremendous emotional response. Under this petition, Lorimer Rd would be widened 3.5 feet on either side of the center line. Despite what anyone may tell you or try to imply, that amount of additional surface will not cause any noticeable impact to this section of Bushy Creek. I invite you to take a look at the upstream characteristics of the watershed on the Raleigh Geographical Information System (GIS). http://maps.raleighnc.gov/iMAPS/
Look around the sea of asphalt that is centered around the address 628 Hutton Street. All of this area drains into our creek. Along with hundreds of high-density residences and lots of other streets, the upgradient area is thousands of times larger (with more runoff) than few feet of extra pavement that Raleigh brings in for this road widening.


Currie Mixon – Here is a copy of the map that I produced on Monday that shows the storm water system for the watershed updgradient from Lorimer Rd.

Currie Mixon's photo.
Like · September 9, 2015 at 10:21am

Erin Salmon – Thanks, Currie. I am continuing to research how we can protect Bushy Creek. I am in the process of applying to both the city and the state to volunteer through Adopt a Stream and Stream Watchers. I think it will be a great chance for the neighborhood kids to get to know their stream.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 11:10pm

Currie Mixon – I have also been looking (via my desktop) more deeply into the characteristics of our watershed. The NC DOT facility on Beryl seems like a very promising place to begin the process of improving the quality and quantity of water entering Bushy Creek. The DOT has a “Blueprint for Sustainability” document that indicates that they have a concern for storm water…

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 11:17pm

Currie Mixon – I want to state very clearly and emphatically that I am not for drastically changing the look of Lorimer Rd, and I do not want any trees to be cut that do not have to be cut. I grew up in an location that is incredibly rural, and that is what drew me/us to the neighborhood. Please don’t think that I or my family advocates changing anything other than having a place to walk that is not on the street.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 10:27am

Jane Fenn – For me the biggest problem with this whole situation is that for you and your neighbors on the east side of Lorimer, the look of the street and the impact on trees you enjoy will change only by 3.5 feet, roughly speaking. For me and all my neighbors on the west side, the look of Lorimer will change by 5 feet (sidewalk) plus 6 feet (setback) plus 3.5 feet. The inequity of this property impact differential is breathtaking. I wrote about this inequity to the city council members in mid-August and never had any reply at all. The letter in which I stated this and proposed changing the footprint of the project by moving the street centerline to the east a distance that would impact ALL neighbors’ property to the same extent was not even mentioned at the meeting although I was told that the way to get it brought up if I couldn’t be there was to write. The look and the feel of inequity definitely is a contributing factor in peoples’ desire to see the project changed. The look and feel of Lorimer will change dramatically depending on which side of the street you live on. Please advocate changing the petition — and if that means repealing this one and starting over, so be it — so that all residents can reap comparable benefits and experience comparable property impact consequences. As it stands, the petition DOES change Lorimer much more drastically for some than for others, and that inequity is the key point for me.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 5:17pm

Shannon Bellezza – But the petition that was passed specifies that one cannot occur without the other. No alternatives were investigated/proposed. If the petition is upheld, a sidewalk will be installed and the look and feel of Lorimer Rd. will drastically change.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 10:38am · Edited

Shannon Bellezza – I heard Erin trying very hard to get you and Sharon on board with the idea of a sidewalk without drastic changes to the neighborhood, but that would require repealing the current petition. Is this something you guys are willing to support?

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 10:40am

Currie Mixon – I disagree that it will drastically change. It will change somewhat, but not drastically.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 10:40am

Currie Mixon – That is a very interesting proposition, Shannon Bellezza, and one that Sharon and I have had a lot of conversations about. My feeling is that people who are unhappy with the current petition would be unhappy/unsupportive of any sidewalk approach. I would like to hear, on the record, of what my neighbors do support.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 10:43am · Edited
Steve Grothmann – 4 stop signs at the bottom of the hill
– Stop ahead signs further up on Lorimer
– Resurface the road (this was mentioned as an option earlier, for about 1/5 the cost of the current plan)

Like · 3 · September 9, 2015 at 12:32pm

Erin Salmon – We should also have the bus stop moved to a safer corner. I heard it used to be at Merwin and Lorimer, which makes so much more sense. There is plenty of space to step out of the road onto a curb, as opposed to the blind curve at Woodlinks and Lorimer. This would also be closer for Sharon with three small kids. I even think there are remnants of a crosswalk there. Have it repainted and put up signage for kids crossing.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 11:32pm

Ryan Barnum – The cost of just resurfacing the road is $8.50 per linear front foot. The process is the same as the curb and gutter with sidewalk petition. Stop signs are handled by the traffic calming division and it’s a separate source of funding, but I’m not sure from where yet.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 1:04pm

Sharon Moll Mixon – Resurfacing the road does not address any of the watershed issues that your neighbors face.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 1:24am

Shannon Bellezza – Before any alternatives can be considered, however, the current petition must be repealed. Erin is working very hard on that. Any support we can throw her way in this will help.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 1:22pm

Currie Mixon – Steve’s approach still ends up with no alternative but to walk on the road (where bikes belong, but people don’t). Believe it or not, I’ve seen quite a few vehicles blow past the stop sign on Chaney at the intersection with Garland, even though it’s quite visible there.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 5:17pm · Edited

Steve Grothmann – I don’t follow what you mean by “belong.” Anyway, I was out on the street tonight and have been paying closer attention to the amount of traffic in general lately, and I tried, but I really can’t see how anyone can think Lorimer has enough traffic to justify this project (if sidewalks are the primary motivation as you stated.) I ran into a friend who lives on Merwin, walking his dog on Lorimer, who also thought this plan was unnecessary, who said he always walks down Lorimer because it’s pretty and “because there is no traffic.” !!

Ms. Kay Crowder — this passed but clearly there’s serious discord about many connected issues, including the misunderstanding of some who signed the petition. We need to start with something less invasive (and expensive) — signs seem like a logical start.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 8:10pm · Edited

Shannon Bellezza – I’ve lived in this end of the neighborhood for 10 years. During that time, the traffic/walkability on Lorimer has not changed. A sidewalk is not a solution to a new problem. I have to wonder why, then, if you knew a sidewalk was so important to you, you didn’t consider that when purchasing a house. It seems unfair to ask your neighbors to retrofit their neighborhood to suit your own personal need that could have been addressed otherwise. I guarantee that you guys weren’t the first people to think of a sidewalk, either, but likely the first to take action because others probably thought “I would never ask that of my neighbors” or “I’m glad this neighborhood does not have a sidewalk.” You may counter with, “well then why did the majority of the people on the street sign the petition?” to which I would answer that people did not know what they were signing because they were not given all of the information necessary to make an informed decision/correct information. I’m not laying blame for the distribution of misinformation because I cannot tell from where it originated and I don’t think anyone was trying to be deceptive. The problem is, now we all know that the information was incorrect and that there could have been alternatives proposed, but you guys are still pushing for this. Choose two: A house on this end of Lorimer Rd.; a sidewalk on this end of Lorimer Rd.; neighbors that feel like a united community free of contention.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 3:05pm

Currie Mixon – Shannon, I don’t know how much of the neighborhood may be feeling regret that they signed the petition. It would be utter speculation for me to try to speak for anyone else. My feeling is, though, that much of the vocal opposition here is simply the vocal minority. I could caution that no one can presume to speak for the entire neighborhood.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 3:21pm

Currie Mixon – I would reiterate that I’ve not heard any of the vocal opponents of the petition put forth another sidewalk option that they would actually petition for.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 3:22pm

Erin Salmon – I will. I know you said that the gradient on the asphalt sidewalk may be a sticking point, but why not try for it? I have said to many people, and I will continue to tell more that I am willing to be the petitioner for any future petitions that we want to put forth.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 11:37pm · Edited

Barbara Scott – Thanks for that map, Currie. It’s helpful to see the big picture, which also includes all the contaminants that are going downstream to the Neuse River and ultimately people’s drinking water. Yes, this .6 mile segment of paving is small compared to the huge amount of runoff being created in our city. My point is that our public officials need to be aware of this fact: imposing these outdated and environmentally unfriendly solutions on every petition for a sidewalk in an older neighborhood is neither wise nor beneficial.

Like · 4 · September 9, 2015 at 3:26pm

Currie Mixon – My final word on this is that I’ve only heard of one set of property owners who signed the petition that has expressed regrets. I could conjecture that if anyone else felt pressure to sign a petition that results in them spending thousands of dollars, they would also feel pressure when a vocal opponent then comes by and tells them that the neighborhood will be fire-bombed by this project.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 3:26pm

Shannon Bellezza – But the vocal minority is the majority on your block. Why wasn’t the petition redrawn to exempt the 1200 block?

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 3:30pm · Edited

Sharon Moll Mixon – Why wasn’t the petition withdrawn to exempt the 1200 block of Lorimer Road? Because no one asked us to do that. I never received one phone call, text message, or knock on my door. The only correspondence that Donna got was from Jan that CC’d her on a letter. I was taking her concerns to heart by asking the City Council to consider putting the sidewalk on the east side instead of the west side.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 2:44am

Sharon Moll Mixon – We had the petition in hand until the deadline that it needed to be submitted. Even after we submitted it there may have been a chance of talking to Kay Crowder with whatever compromise the 1200 block would come up with. Standing in front of the City Council as a United neighborhood would have gone a lot further in my opinion.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 2:52am

Ryan Barnum – Again, I never wanted a sidewalk, and certainly not on our side of the street where we will end up having people walking 15 feet away from our living room walls of glass. I enjoy my privacy and don’t want to lose that. This project will certainly impede on my right to enjoy the privacy of my home. Like I said before, my last minute signature was based on fear of the rate increasing on a project I was told was happening either way. I was misinformed about other aspects of the petition which is ultimately my fault for not reading between the lines. My frontage is three times the size of anybody else on Lorimer and without my signature, that petition wouldn’t have looked so good in front of city council. Yes you still had the numbers to pass it technically, but who knows if it would have with a much lower percentage.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 3:37pm

Currie Mixon – I wasn’t exactly involved in the petitioning, but I’m not sure that anyone ever brought up a request to the petitioners to exclude the 1200 block (except at the Council hearing). Again, I’m a second party to this, but I believe this is what Sharon referred to in her statement about lack of communication. Sorry, Sharon, I don’t want to speak for you.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 3:37pm

Karen Flowers Essic – It would have been hard for the petitioners to have said something sooner about changing the petition b/c they didn’t have the info to know there was enough other people who felt the same way. For example, I could have asked Sharon to exclude the 1200 block, but for all I knew, all of the neighbors on my block signed the petition, you know? Or for all I knew, she didn’t have the numbers for the rest of the street even and the petition wasn’t going to go anywhere. Only Sharon and Donna knew the stats. The process was flawed I guess. It’s not Sharon and Donna’s fault, they had the percentages they needed and pushed it forward. They just had an advantage that those opposed didn’t have.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 4:24pm

Currie Mixon – I understand where you are coming from, Ryan. I know you have a lot of frontage and will have a very large “assessment” – 50% larger than anyone else. Ours is a double-lot, but I think even our bill will be relatively small compared to yours.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 3:44pm

Barbara Scott – I don’t thing anyone can say with certainty that the “amount of additional (paved) surface will not cause any noticeable impact to this section of Bushy Creek.” That kind of prediction requires specific local stream flow and weather data and the know-how to interpret it. Nor can I predict flooding. I can say that the water moving through a curb-and-gutter system will move faster than that moving through yards, it will contain contaminants from a wider surface area than now exists, and those contaminants won’t be filtered as when runoff moves through the soil.

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 7:14pm

Erin Salmon – What about the impact to the creek from the construction itself?

Like · 2 · September 9, 2015 at 11:21pm

Currie Mixon – Barbara, I say that as a professional civil and environmental engineer that models existing storm-water systems and designs modifications to storm-water management systems.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 8:55pm

Currie Mixon – By vast amounts, the flow rates in “conveyances” are governed by the areas (and impervious areas) flowing into it. This is, relatively speaking, a very small additional impervious area. The other major component of the peak flows is what is termed the “time of concentration”. Without going into more technical detail, this concentration aspect of the proposed project is also taking into account when I made my general statement that the flow changes to the stream would be unnoticeable.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 8:58pm

Barbara Scott – Thank you for clarifying your background, Currie. I am glad to know that you made the statement with the professional competence to do so. That means your suggestion at the city council meeting that a low impact development approach would be preferable carries a lot of weight.

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 9:33pm

Currie Mixon – Barbara Scott, I will reiterate that I believe it is a much better policy and practice to implement low-impact practices wherever they can fit. Likewise, I am frustrated that LID was quickly dismissed for this project. I am not hopeful that much will ever come from the City Council’s stated position preferring LID, based on this experience.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 10:28pm · Edited

Barbara Scott – Currie, can you refer me to the city council’s stated position preferring LID? That would be most helpful. I can probably find it with some searching. But if you have access to it, a URL or other info would help.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 12:07am

Barbara Scott – Currie Mixon, please bear with me for two more questions that you can answer because you are a stormwater engineer. I raised the issue of stormwater impact on the creek, and I want to be sure that everyone has the same information from a competent source. Even though the amount of additional surface won’t make a significant impact in our section of Bushy Creek, does the speed at which the water flows through curb and gutter to the creek make an impact?

Like · September 10, 2015 at 11:27am · Edited

Barbara Scott – And will the curb and gutter make a significant impact on the amount of runoff going into any one person’s yard? I’m thinking about the yards in the next block toward Kaplan on Lorimer where a heavy stream of water runs through yards in low lying areas. When I look at the watershed map, I see a creek in about that location. This must be a creek that dries up during dry weather and appears during rains. Will curb and gutter have any impact on that stream of water, or is it a permanent part of the area’s surface and underground waters?

Like · September 10, 2015 at 11:28am · Edited

Currie Mixon – Barbara Scott, the short answer is that I’m not sure without doing more of a design. My feeling is that the flow coming from the storm drain into the creek would not cause an interruption. Standard practice is to armor the area where it discharges with stone that is sized properly so that it won’t wash away. The torrent coming through this creek during intense rainfall would seem to require larger-sized stone for this armoring.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 11:50am

Currie Mixon – Barbara, I’m not sure where I saw it, since it’s probably been a year, but in searching around for the City’s position on LID, I believe I remember finding a resolution or something of that sort by the Council indicating support for LID methods.

Like · September 10, 2015 at 11:52am

Barbara Scott – Thank you, Currie. This helps. I’ll do some searching for that LID statement.

Like · 1 · September 10, 2015 at 12:42pm
.  .  .  .  .  .

Erin Salmon

September 9, 2015

Read Section 6-2016!!! There is an asphalt sidewalk option that exists and is easy to find with a simple google search. I need help reading the code, but it sounds like our street might qualify. Why did Kay Crowder and Jimmy Upchurch not let us know this even existed at the April meeting or at the Council meeting? Why is this particular proposal being pushed by Kay so hard??

Click to access StSdwkPolicy.pdf


Erin Salmon – Currie Mixon, when can we talk about this in person?

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 7:56am

Sharon Moll Mixon – Is this what that option would look like?

Sharon Moll Mixon's photo.
Like · September 9, 2015 at 8:09am

Erin Salmon – I don’t know. I am looking into it and will let you know. Where is this picture taken?

Like · September 9, 2015 at 8:48am

Sharon Moll Mixon – Garland

Like · September 9, 2015 at 8:48am

Erin Salmon – Is it the Ethiopian church?

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 8:48am

Erin Salmon – So this model of sidewalk already exists on one of the roads directly off of Lorimer and it was not pointed out at the April meeting?

Like · September 9, 2015 at 8:53am · Edited

Shannon Bellezza – I just drove by it. It is concrete, but I think maybe the general layout of it would be similar, although it has a big setback, so I don’t know how setbacks would work. It is a very short stretch of sidewalk, and I wonder if it was put in by the church and not the city (seems most likely).

Like · September 9, 2015 at 9:19am · Edited

Erin Salmon – There is actually another option for sidewalk construction on Garland at the corner of Kent by the townhouses. It is a 6 ft sidewalk with no setback.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 9:45am

Currie Mixon – Erin Salmon, in response to your original posted question, I’m going to guess that the City would point to item (3) “There are no existing or projected stormwater deficiencies.” The current condition (eroding) of the ditches at the steeper grades may be pointed to as a deficiency.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 11:31am

Currie Mixon – I’m also not sure about how the broader codes have been modified since 2011 with the introduction of the UDO.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 11:32am

Erin Salmon – Thanks for the input. I will keep looking into it.

Like · September 9, 2015 at 10:43pm

Erin Salmon – Do you know what UDO codes I should start with?

Like · September 9, 2015 at 10:44pm

Currie Mixon – I’ll have to admit that I’m not that knowledgeable about the codes or their applicability. I’ve taken the City word as to what can be done for a sidewalk petition. Section 8.4.4 describes new streets, but I’m really not sure how that would be applicable here, where we have an existing street?

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 11:13pm

Erin Salmon – Kay Crowder, thank you for joining the conversation. I ask my question again, why did you push so hard for this particular proposal with only a one foot change, as far as I can tell. What exactly are the dimensions that the council decided upon?

Like · 1 · September 9, 2015 at 11:41pm

Facebook Posts – September 2, 2015

Here are some “Lorimer Rd Raleigh” Facebook posts from 9/2/2015, a day after the evening City Council Meeting where the Lorimer Road Project was approved—with a one-foot reduction in the width of the sidewalk:

.  .  .  .  .  .

Ryan Barnum

September 2, 2015

I regret that I was unable to make it to the meeting last night. I live at 1300 Lorimer Rd. Up until this summer started, I walked Lorimer Rd multiple times a day, every day, with my dog. I never felt unsafe. I understand mothers with children may not feel as comfortable in the road, but again, I never had any issues. My road frontage is three times the size of any other property on the petition, and so is the bill. I half heartedly signed the petition after speaking many times with Donetta, the woman in the office handling this initially. She told me that this thing is pretty much happening either way and it’s best to just sign the petition now to put it through before the rates go up and it’s even worse. She made sure to tell me that the designers and engineers try to work closely with the homeowners to be as minimally invasive as possible. I also spoke with Donna at length, and several other neighbors including Beverly, whose yard floods every time there’s rain, which is the main motive for the curb and gutter. Everybody I spoke to about it assured me they would push for the two foot setback with a five foot sidewalk, AND a narrower road of 27 feet. Donetta told me that with the 27’ road and the smaller setback, essentially the ditch would be where the sidewalk is and the road would push slightly more towards the east side, which to me wouldn’t be the end of the world as long as they didn’t cut anything down. I am 100% opposed to a 32 foot road and sidewalk. My property was established over 50 years ago by the Sawyers that planted many trees and bushes around the property. Each one serves a specific purpose. Most importantly for me, the privacy they give to my house and yard is something that I am unwilling to give up. As it is, my living room isn’t very far from the road. If we have a 32 foot road, even with the smaller sidewalk footprint, people will be walking about 15 feet away from my large windows. I also value the aesthetic of my property far more than any curb and gutter. My house is at the lowest possible point on the road and aside from one time during the worst hurricane to ever hit NC, it flooded a little bit. Flooding does not concern me. If this is still trying to be pushed through with a 32’ road I am going to write to the city council and everybody else that has a say in this to respectfully remove my name from the petition. This isn’t what I signed up for and I have no interest in shelling out over $10,000 for a project that is going to take away my privacy, ruin the aesthetic of my home, and put me into debt.
One last thought, when they install a new road and a sidewalk, this is only going to increase the traffic coming through the neighborhood. Cars will go faster on the bigger road. It will make for an even more welcoming cut through for people walking that don’t live in the neighborhood. Like several others on the street, my house was robbed last summer. I do not want to encourage more people looking in to see what they can get when they’re walking so close to my house.



Sharon Moll Mixon– 27ft road 5ft sidewalks but I don’t know that they have specified exactly what the setback will be as of now.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 6:06pm
Donna Moll BurfordThe petition was passed last night by city council, with only a 27′ road and they reduced the sidewalk to 5′ to keep in line with the rest of the neighborhood. I spoke to public works after and they will be under advisement about reducing the setback as well. As to be expected everyone has their concerns. The next step is the design so communication is key.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 6:14pm · Edited
Ryan Barnum – Thanks for that information Donna. If that’s truly the case and they’re also reducing the setback to two feet, and Donetta’s assurance that the designers will work hard not to remove trees and rip up yards holds true, then it’s a step in the right direction. Of course having the sidewalk on the east side would be even better. If the worst that happens is the ditch gets filled in and becomes the sidewalk, then I could live with that, again as long as they don’t remove any of the trees and bushes on my property. Do you know when the next meeting is? Donetta said there would be several meetings during the design phase that we could voice our concerns and work on something that appeases everybody.
Like · 1 · September 2, 2015 at 6:37pm
Jennifer Clifton – Ryan I wholeheartedly agree with you in that I don’t want to pay 5,000 for the city to tear up our yard and take down any plants/trees only to replace them with a sidewalk we do not want. I understand having to make sacrifices for the good of the whole – but I am not convinced in this project being better for everyone involved. Too bad.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 7:56pm
Sharon Moll Mixon – All the work is being done within the city easement nothing is happening on anyone’s property. It is true that root may be affected from trees but we have not been lied to by Powell or Upchurch. I have begun to trust them when they say things they want to work WITH us on this project.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 8:07pm
Jennifer Clifton – It is an expensive project that I personally am not interested in.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 8:12pm
Erin Salmon – My impression last night after the meeting is that the original petition is what has been approved. I did not get the sense that the lower impact option was passed. I was thoroughly disappointed by Kay Crowder’s lack of empathy to all of her constituents’ concerns. I do not see the issues of pedestrian and cyclist safety, the storm water needs, and the desire for our small, wooded neighborhood to remain distinctive in its aesthetic and character to be mutually exclusive. There were alternatives voiced that I think many of us could get on board with that have a lower impact and a lower cost. However, the discussion around these options was not fleshed out. I am already looking into the appeal process, paperwork which needs to be submitted within 30 days. Our neighborhood is clearly divided at this point. I hope we can reach a creative solution. Currie Mixon, I am especially interested in your ideas as a low impact credentialed engineer.
Like · 4 · September 2, 2015 at 11:29pm
Currie Mixon – Hello, neighbors! Erin, I went home from the meeting and immediately began to do some sketching and “figuring” on the geometry. The fact that we are dealing with a 14% grade as the road drops down to the creek limits how storm water can be managed in a low profile. However, since the drainage area is relatively small, we don’t have a lot of runoff to manage.
Like · 1 · September 3, 2015 at 9:36am
Currie Mixon – There is the engineering/design side of an approach, but the expectation of the city is to follow the unified development ordinance. This is the standard that he planning department started with:
Like · 1 · September 3, 2015 at 9:39am
Like · 1 · September 3, 2015 at 9:41am
Currie Mixon – I believe the “setback” mentioned in the meeting refers to dimension “F”, the planting area. Am I correct that the Kay Crowder requested that this UDO standard be narrowed for the sidewalk to 5 ft and the planting area/setback to 5 feet?
Like · September 3, 2015 at 9:52am
Currie Mixon – The width of the project will be largely due to these two dimensions, regardless of how the storm water is managed. However, I happen to believe that the curbs are not desirable for a number of reasons, and the curb and gutter is 2.5 feet wide.
Like · 1 · September 3, 2015 at 10:03am
Ryan Barnum – I thought the setback was supposed to be 2′ with a 5′ sidewalk? That’s what was discussed before the petition was submitted anyway.
Like · September 3, 2015 at 10:23am · Edited
Sharon Moll Mixon – Ryan if you have time you should watch the video of the meeting so you do not need to go by hearsay. But as I understand it 27 foot road 3.5 ft setback 5ft sidewalk. (The project will end where ditches are now.) One of the councilman suggested this neighborhood could support a different style of road that does not use curb and gutter. Gives it a more natural look.
Like · 2 · September 11, 2015 at 8:36pm · Edited
Ryan Barnum – Ok thanks. I watched the video but I must have missed that. I’ll watch it again. I’d be interested in hearing all options.
Like · 2 · September 3, 2015 at 1:43pm
Erin Salmon – Thank you, Currie, for your input. This is the kind of conversation I was hoping was possible at the city meeting, which you did make efforts to initiate. We still as neighbors have a chance to come together to understand all of the needs of our small community.
Like · September 3, 2015 at 5:14pm
.  .  .  .  .  .

Jane Fenn

September 2, 2015

Donna Burford and Kay Crowder, I cannot help but wonder why you do not have sidewalks on your streets. I don’t understand why a sidewalk on my street is essential to you when you don’t have them yourselves. I further do not understand why a letter I wrote to all city council members weeks ago has generated no response at all from any council rep, especially not the one one representing my own neighborhood. Two issues here — what has been a congenial and pleasant street in our neighborhood has had divisive forces introduced to it, and our neighborhood representative seems to be ignoring her constituents. While I am certainly prepared for civility and disagreement over any public issue, I question that others choose not to have happen to themselves what they want to see happen to me, and that I am not even accorded a written response to a legitimate constituent letter.


Sharon Moll Mixon – I don’t know if you realize that Donna is my sister. She started this petition so that her girls can walk to my house on a free sidewalk. My elderly father lives on garland which would be a perfect walk for him with his walker if he could step off of the road when a car or semi drive by.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 10:44am
Jane Fenn – Sharon, I do realize that your families are related, although if the reason was for your children and hers to have sidewalk access, then why was the sidewalk not proposed for your side of the street? Both sets of children will need to cross the street from the sidewalk on MY side to get to your house. This is to my mind a divisive factor between neighbors who exist cordially on both sides of the street. You want a goal for which have to pay inequitably. We both have to pay the same money costs, but the loss of property access, impact and use is very very different, and the west side neighbors bear it excessively. If taking offense and resentment are the result of this process, I can understand that. I feel it myself whenever I think about the impact of this project on me versus its impact on you. That is exactly what I mean by divisive. I regret intensely that this is the result of actions by a well-meaning person but there are always consequences to any action and the appearance of inequity as well as its reality are two of the consequences of this action. I suggested several project modifications in my letter to Ms. Crowder and the rest of the council, and I sent that letter to Donna as well. Apparently none of these project modifications which would have mitigated at least some of the inequities in it are taken seriously since I have had no response at all from the council members.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:32am
Sharon Moll Mixon – At the meeting last night I asked them to please put the sidewalk on the east. It makes more sense to me that the sidewalk would be on the east side.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:36am
Jane Fenn – Thank you for that. Is there any indication that the project will be modified in that way?
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:38am

Donna Moll Burford – I know for a fact that your letter was read by at least one of the city council, the public works and was shared with the rest of the city council. I asked that they do a sidewalk with the least amount of impact to the neighbors and Sharon asked them to put it on her side. They brought up your letter at the meeting but the discussion of the exact specifications could not be addressed because the time was consumed with the request to not include the north part of Lorimer at all.

Like · September 2, 2015 at 12:39pm
Beverly Thomas FacebookJane,
You may not have been at the meeting in our neighborhood about street improvements for Lorimer Road when Kay Crowder told us she had tried to get her neighbors to sign a petition requesting that the city install a sidewalk on her street. She did not succeed, so her lack of sidewalk is not for lack of trying. Donna’s Street, Fairway Ridge, is not a thru street and does not pose the hazards for residents that exist on Lorimer.

Like · September 2, 2015 at 10:51am
Sharon Moll Mixon – I have heard people say “the person that started the petition does not even live on the street” not sure why that matters. Anyone can start a petition for anything it is the majority of signatures as to whether or not it passes. Donna put hours and hours of blood sweat and tears into this for me and my family on my request. So I take serious offense to that comment. Not to mention she is forced to travel Lorimer road to get to her house.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:10am
Steve Grothmann – So the petition was initiated by someone who is not subject to the fee?
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:18am
Shannon Bellezza – I think it matters that she does not live on the street in that she will not have to pay thousands of dollars or be subject to a property lien, lose significant property to encroachment, lose the aesthetic of her street, or put up with the construction process. Many of us live in this neighborhood because of its underdeveloped nature, in contrast to many other Raleigh neighborhoods. In essence, people see her as reaping convenience on a burden carried solely on others’ backs. So in that way, it does matter, and I sympathize.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:32am · Edited
Sharon Moll Mixon – Yes Steve she is my sister and I asked her to put in a petition for free sidewalks.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:32am
Shannon Bellezza – But it’s not free. It comes at a great expense to the property owners directly affected and to taxpayers of Raleigh.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 7:50pm · Edited
Sharon Moll Mixon – We wanted and petitioned for free sidewalks they will not do that on a nonconforming road that’s why it turned into curb and gutter.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:38am
Sharon Moll Mixon – This petition was passed by 71% of the homeowners.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 10:23pm · Edited
Shannon Bellezza – Were all made aware of the actual costs they would incur when they signed the petition?
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:47am · Edited
Sharon Moll Mixon – Of course they were aware of the cost. That is the number one reason we want to fix the road at this time when it is only $32 per linear foot the road will need to be fixed eventually and in the future it will be a lot more expensive to us.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:53am
Sharon Moll Mixon – We are not lucky enough to have a gravel road that is maintained regularly by the city.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 11:57am
Shannon Bellezza – I can definitely see some benefits of having a sidewalk along Lorimer – it would be great for the kids on this end to be able to safely walk around, but surely you can understand that though 71% approve, 29% may be very upset. It is not a matter of luck to live on a gravel road, but a matter of choice. I’m just very sympathetic to the people who don’t want the sidewalk. Every now and then someone wants to petition to pave Onslow, so I know how it feels to be facing drastic unwanted changes at a significant expense (and fortunately for us, it is unwanted by the majority).
Like · September 2, 2015 at 12:05pm · Edited
Sharon Moll Mixon – Not signing does not mean disagreeing. There are signatures we did not get because people were out of town, did not answer their doors, for at least a couple of properties did not sign because they did not feel like they had enough fact that the petition was with written well enough. You don’t know how much I hate that I my neighbors are upset with me. I love this neighborhood and I plan to be here until the day I die. I want to send my kids running around the neighborhood playing with their neighborhood friends as they get older. I want my neighbors to like me.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 12:07pm
Jane Fenn – Let me repeat — I am NOT upset with either you or your sister. I AM upset that the actions taken have consequences which are falling inequitably on half of the neighbors affected by this petition. These actions have had serious consequences and I do not see the city council offering to mitigate the inequities, according to what has been posted right here about the meeting last night. This sounds very much like a done deal, that the inequities between the eastside neighbors and the westside neighbors along Lorimer are not going to change, and that the attempt to perform a good deed (which Kay Crowder’s own neighbors didn’t feel was good enough to persuade them) is going to result in problems that impact me and my westside neighbors that won’t impact you nor Donna. These actions that you and your sister undertook for good reasons in your minds have resulted in burdens to me that you won’t feel. Surely you understand that I might appreciate both of you as fine people but I do NOT appreciate the affects on me of your actions now that the consequences of them are out of your control. If you can see any way at all to make this situation better, I welcome and applaud your efforts. I have undertaken efforts myself but to all appearances, to no avail.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 1:10pm
Sharon Moll Mixon – I have heard you made many good points in your letter. I wish those were the talking points that were proposed in the meeting. Instead the time was taken up with the lawyer. And discussing whether or not there are flooding issues. I wanted to talk about whether or not the interest rates is set and if it could be lowered for us. I also wanted to propose 3 foot setback and 5 foot sidewalk. Instead the time was taken up with moot points. I know you were out of town and couldn’t be but sure wish you were there Jane you would have new insights on the many families who are really pushing for this and want it bad. This started with me and my sister wanting to walk safely to each others house and it has turned into bringing a community together and helping with flooding issues homeowners have been experiencing and asking the city for help for 4 years.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 2:03pm
Shannon Bellezza – I have no skin in this game as I do not live on Lorimer, and like I said, I can definitely see why people would want a sidewalk, but I did want to explain how your sister being, for all intents and purposes, the face of this petition could make her the target of some people’s ire.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 12:09pm
Donna Moll Burford – Fairway Ridge was developed after this area was considered part of the city of raleigh, so curbs and gutters were installed. Maybe being that ít is a dead end road, they weren’t required to put sidewalks running the whole length. But there is sidewalk running half way down Wood links Rd. that connects our homes to Lorimer Rd. We got approval to include the continuation of that sidewalk down to Lorimer as part of this project. Also, I have made my own sidewalk I front of my property as well. It is not only essential to me but also the other 17 homes on my street. Lorimer Rd. is the only access road to connect us to our homes. We have quite a few walkers that walk this road every day. Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of avoiding the dangerous terrains by living at the end of the road.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 12:26pm · Edited
Donna Moll Burford – Just for the record…..just because I am the one that made the call to the city requesting this petition has no impact on how this has moved forward. There are 41 amazing families on this street 28 families recognized this improvement to be a benefit to either property and their community. They are the ones that signed this petition to make it happen. I don’t have a vote….But the ones that do, made it very clear they have been wanting this for more than 40 years.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 12:49pm · Edited
Karen Flowers Essic – This is a minor point I would like to add to this discussion. We keep throwing around numbers like the numbers are black and white. I will go on record as saying my family did not sign the petition. We could see good things about the petition and also some bad. We decided our feelings were too mixed to commit our neighbors to cover such expenses on our behalf when we were not totally sure ourselves. But I have also heard neighbors say they signed the petition to be “neighborly” and that they were maybe equally ambivalent as us. So I just think we could remember that while the numbers are good for making a point, they are not exactly the true representation of people’s interest level in the project. There are going to be people upset understandably. I am not one of them, b/c I don’t see what good comes from that personally, but I can empathize with those who are upset.
Like · 3 · September 2, 2015 at 2:03pm
Donna Moll Burford – Your right….it isnt about the numbers. Karen every single one of us can see the good and bad and we all have our concerns that is why there are meetings to discuss our issues and our time is best spent working together as a community.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 2:40pm
Sharon Moll Mixon – Communication is key! I sure wish the neighbors had talk to us to change the petition before it was submitted. If only we had talked more at the April 1st meeting.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 3:20pm

Jane Fenn – I specifically asked for changes in that petition before it was submitted and was told that in essence even Donna was not in favor of it exactly as it was, but that there would be time and opportunity for modifying it once the approval numbers were achieved. Communication clearly has not been a help in this process because it was tried. I also played my citizen’s part in writing directly to the council members, especially to the one representing my neighborhood, and have heard not one word. The communication has all been one way despite my efforts and those of others in the neighborhood. This petition process took on a life of its own and now we all must face the consequences, some of us with much more severe consequences than others. That remains the crux of the problem — something was put in motion that impacts half the street property owners unfairly while the other half do not experience the same level of impact on their property. There is no way to sugarcoat that. And it is a factual error to claim people did not communicate their reservations because they did. You and Donna started something for what seemed like good reasons to you at the time and now all of us must deal with the unforeseen results.

Like · September 2, 2015 at 3:59pm
Sharon Moll Mixon – I hope you understand that no one requested the sidewalk be put on the west side that is an engineering issue. As far as fair or unfair I don’t know what to tell you except maybe we can get sidewalks on the west side in the future also so that would seem more fair to you.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 4:36pm

Sharon Moll Mixon – Last night’s meeting was to work on those modifications and changes we would like to have made to it. Donna proposed making the setback and sidewalk as small as possible for the smallest possible footprint. (No 6ft and 6ft) It was also proposed by a lawyer to go ahead with some of the petition but drop part of it off. I would be upset also that your letter was not read out loud at this meeting. If I were you I would expect a response from what you submitted also.

Like · September 2, 2015 at 4:55pm
Steve Grothmann – My personal feeling is that we don’t NEED sidewalks on either side. Obviously some people feel safer with them, but really…? We have relatively little traffic–it’s 5:00 now and NO CARS are coming by. Lorimer is not like Kaplan. I’ve never felt unsafe- all you have to do is step over two feet onto some grass, for a few seconds.
I can’t help but suspect that this push for sidewalks is more than a safety concern, but a desire for the street to look more manicured and live up to a certain aesthetic ideal that is not universal. I’m repeating my previous post.
BUT- cost is a huge factor. For us, more than $5000. You can’t just ask people to swallow that kind of expense out of the blue. We need to show up at whatever meetings there are and publicly oppose this. Like there’s time to do all that.
Like · 1 · September 2, 2015 at 5:10pm
Donna Moll Burford – Steve….The city notified everyone on Lorimer of the meeting and was last night. The city council approved it and it is moving forward.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 5:13pm
Steve Grothmann – Missed it too busy. Great.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 5:15pm
Sharon Moll Mixon – Steve have you ever walked north on Lorimer? There are many areas that you could not possibly step off of the road. I understand people’s perspective on both ends of the petition are very different (uphill) because you enter and exit (and walk) the neighborhood in a different direction you do not see the water flow issues and the flooding problems people have at the bottom of the hill. There is a creek that needs to be addressed. The expense sucks for all of us involved but we are doing this for our neighbors. And to bring the community together. I dare you to go door to door and talk to each person downhill from you and ask them how they feel about curb and gutter.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 10:41pm · Edited
Steve Grothmann – Bottom line, I don’t have a loose $5K for this. Thanks
Like · September 2, 2015 at 5:26pm
Sharon Moll Mixon – Maybe we can create a GoFundMe account for you.
Like · September 2, 2015 at 5:26pm
Steve Grothmann – No.
Like · 2 · September 2, 2015 at 5:27pm
Erin Salmon – The lawyer last night did take up a significant amount of time. He was also speaking for 7 property owners. There was plenty of time also used by 5 other residents of Lorimer Road, 2 residents of adjacent streets, and 2 experts brought in by Kay Crowder. Jane’s letter was mentioned in one sentence. Kay did a lot of whispering in the ears of almost every other council person while her constituents were disagreeing, rather than talking with us to problem solve. When one of her experts was asked why 6 ft, he said because that is what the petitioner asked for. There was very little discussion to amend it. Currie even brought up the option of a multipurpose trail. He mentioned his low-impact certification as an engineer, and not one council person asked him a single question. The council did not have to make a decision last night, it could have been put into a committee to explore these concerns, but they unanimously passed the petition with a bit of pushing from Kay. Why?
Like · 1 · September 3, 2015 at 12:06am
Donna Moll Burford – This petition had been on the books since November of 2014. This isn’t a new thing for every one.
Like · September 3, 2015 at 8:10am
Erin Salmon – @Donna Moll Burford while that is true, that doesn’t mean that more conversations cannot happen. And I hope you will be a part of them. You are a member of this neighborhood whether you live on Lorimer Road or not. I have not spoken directly to you, only Sharon. I hope we will be able to talk in person soon, as my yard is significantly impacted by the current petition. I was unable to make both the April meeting and the neighborhood block party because of travel happening concurrently. I did however have multiple conversations with neighbors attending the meeting at the church to voice my opinion including Sharon, and I did attend the city council meeting. This whole process has divided the neighborhood which is good for no one. This petition is only one petition for street improvement. Let’s figure out how we can submit a proposal that will work for everyone, so that the city council can hear a united community voice. From the sound of it, many people believed the petition would not eliminate the chance to explore options, but it has done that at this point. This does not have to be the end of it. All of Lorimer Road’s needs are not mutually exclusive. There are alternatives to the city guidelines which are happening all over Raleigh. Yes, it may involve more work, but my impression is that many of the property owners voicing concerns are in it for the long road, and that our homes and street are worth it.
Like · 2 · September 3, 2015 at 8:59pm · Edited
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Sam Bellezza – Facebook Post (9/4/2015)

This group [Lorimer Rd Raleigh] is a VERY valuable forum for discussion and information. I feel so much more in the loop of goings on. I appreciate the initiative, effort, and time spent creating it. In the last few days, there has been great discussion on development in our neighborhood. I have also seen quite a few posts about everyone remaining united as neighbors even if they disagree. I think our neighborhood is in for many changes as economic forces, large lots and it’s prime location invite a future of tear downs and rebuilds. We will certainly be divided in our opinions on these future projects as well, so lets stay united as neighbors in and out of this forum, and continue to use it as our sounding board for these situations and welcome the change to see things through other neighbors perspectives. I also think we should invite Kay Crowder to join? I get the feeling both sides of the sidewalk issue feel that they do/did not have enough information and this seems to be a root of contention? Either way I think this is a taste of the future growing pains in our neighborhood and whoever is our city council rep. after the next election should be part of the discussions here. Looking forward to seeing all of my neighbors! —Sam Bellezza, Facebook post, September 4, 2015